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NaCCRA Forum: General

Frank Tobey Jones discontinuing skilled nursing
John Doherty

My wife and I have made a deposit putting us on the wait list for Frank Tobey Jones (FTJ) CCRC in Tacoma, Washington. Since making the deposit we've learned (and confirmed) that FTJ has plans to discontinue the existing skilled nursing facility. On query, one of the comments from an FTJ spokesperson was, "The plan is to be able to provide that kind of [skilled nursing] care in Asst Living." The situation brings up some questions for us - especially after current residents have paid a significant 6 figure entry fee, can facilities like FTJ arbitrarily discontinue services that existed at the time of entry? Can skilled nursing care really be provided in assisted living? And what is there that would keep FTJ and similar facilities from arbitrarily discontinuing memory care services for current or future residents?

Richmond Shreve

This is a problem nation wide, and one of the reasons states should have more regulatory oversight on the CCRC industry. Many contracts have an escape clause that is one-way. The provider gets to change the terms unilaterally and on short notice, often as little as 30 days. This leaves few options for residents who have committed most of their nest egg to the provider.


From the provider's perspective, the skilled nursing demand tanked with COVID-19. It became hard to maintain an economically viable SNF if you can't keep a high percentage of the beds occupied. Even the most benevolent of providers must cover costs.


Many residents want to be cared for at home, not in an institutional setting, these days. Providers are looking for economical ways of serving resident's medical needs at home. It sounds like FT is contemplating a hybrid where a continuum of personal care through skilled nursing care would be provided in a flexible facility. This is not necessarily bad. It may be less socially isolating than the typical SNF, for example. In many states such a hybrid would encounter regulatory barriers.


Another approach is the "Green Home" model.


The focus should be on delivering the best possible quality of life with a continuum of care from full independence to skilled nursing. One of the key reasons for joining a CCRC is to avoid wrenching transitions if or when health deteriorates. We don't want to be separated from those we love, particularly when they and we most need eachother.


Richmond Shreve

NaCCRA Board Member

Forum Moderator

June Lunney

It is quite doable in Washington State to provide the same level of (custodial) care in a facility licensed for Assisted Living as most receive in a skilled care facility. Rather than become concerned simply because of the change of licensure, dig deeper and learn about intended staffing levels and level of care that will be provided (ie things like 2 person transfers, etc).

John Doherty

I did some research on the varying capabilities of Skilled Nursing vs. Assisted Living in CCRCs, my findings attached. Noting that these are generic findings and not specific to the State of Washington.

Susan Farkas

Vary helpful research. Thanks.

Susan Farkas

Anyone considering a CCRC should read the contract VERY carefully, ask many questions and pass it by a lawyer they trust who is familiar with CCRCs.


Notice and count how many times you will see in the contract statements such as:

-"We reserve the right to make certain adjustments"

- "We may make any such adjustments in our sole discretion"

- "We may modify at any time we reasonably determine existing factors necessitate such a change, which are not limited to..."

- "We alone may modify schedules, exhibits, attachments to the Residence and Care Agreement (that are part of it); they are subject to change from time to time as determined by the needs of the business"

- "Our Guidelines may be amended from time to time";

-"We reserve the right to modify any and all services. including the type, frequency and the cost of such services"

-"We may require that you be transferred within the Community or to a facility outside of the Community, as appropriate for the following reasons:.... this is not intended to be an exhaustive list"

-We reserve the right to make certain adjustments to fees and services. Any such modifications are not considered amendments to the Agreement that would otherwise require your consent".


Then, try to figure out what rights you have. Samples from one contract:


  • "Basic Services" means those items and services GENERALLY available to Residents that are described in Schedule 1"
  • "You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no vote regarding Community policies, no right to make policies for the Community, or vote upon management decisions. "
  • "You have the right, as a resident, to access personal and healthcare services that we provide"
  • "We reserve the right to substitute your residence with another comparable residence if it is necessary to do so for proper operation of the Community, or for any other purpose. In the event you object to a transfer initiated pursuant to this section, your sole remedy is to terminate this agreement"
  • " In case a transfer is required, you, your family or guardian shall determine based on OUR criteria for evaluation or placement, whether your transfer shall remain temporary or become permanent"


Note that there is no option in most cases to opt out from the included arbitration clause.


Also, I strongly suggest reading the attached article. Deciding about moving into a CCRC is probably one of the most difficult and riskiest decisions one makes during their lives, particularly if it requires selling one's home in order to pay the entry fee.

Philippa Strahm

I suggest searching for specific CCRCs in the attached article, which has copious foot notes. I did, and turned up three in my area, including residents' lawsuits against two of them.

SocialWorkerMO

What a powerful article. This is why our Forums are so important in the sharing of critical information.

Kay Roberts

I agree.

Philippa Strahm

It does sound like FTJ is just physically relocating skilled nursing services, rather than discontinuing them.


Re "And what is there that would keep FTJ and similar facilities from arbitrarily discontinuing memory care services for current or future residents?"


The answer to that would be in the FTJ contract. and in the state regulations. Skilled nursing, assisted living, memory care, and the overall CCRC may be governed by different sets of state regulations and overseen by different state agencies. 


The Washington Continuing Care Residents Association may be able to help you with this.  


https://waccra.org


Their Consumer Guide can be found in the “Documents” section of the NaCCRA website. Scroll down to “State Consumer Guides”.

Kay Roberts

I am interested in John Dougherty’s post. It’s time to know what our CCRC contracts mean in our states.

Susan Farkas

I have encountered something like this while evaluating and investigating CCRCs. What some CCRCs do is NOT relocation or a hybrid, but switching to a lower level of licensed care to provide much more limited care than usually a SNF provides. By doing this, they have to comply with only ALF licensing rules, not with the much stricter SNF licensing rules. This saves them money.


As mentioned before, unfortunately most contracts make sure that all rights belong to the provider with the resident having just about none. As a result, someone can move into a CCRC expecting what used to be care to the end of their life and one day wake up being told that the CCRC cannot provide for them anymore and they have 30 days to move out.


BUYER BEWARE!

Lorraine Rogers

Giving up skilled nursing beds (SNF) is all about Medicare, what it pays for, what it doesn’t pay for, what it costs to comply with federal CMS regulations to qualify as a facility that can provide Medicare covered treatment.

General rules:

·         Medicare pays for care in a SNF only if it is for short-term rehab following a 3-night qualifying stay in an acute care hospital.  If a patient does not qualify, Medicare pays for short-term rehab services only on an outpatient basis (physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy), which you may get at home, or in an assisted living facility, or even in a SNF.  Medicare is just not picking up an AL or SNF daily room and board rate for care in a facility.  (Certain ACO's and certain Medicare Advantage Plans can waive the 3-day requirement.) 

·         If you qualify, what does Medicare pay for SNF care in 2024?  If you have Original Medicare, you pay these amounts for each benefit period:

o   • Days 1–20: $0

o   • Days 21–100: $204 each day

o    • After day 100: You pay all costs

·         Medicare has never paid for long-term or custodial care in a SNF nor for Assisted Living.


Collington in Maryland gave up its SNF licenses in 2023 and applied for additional AL licenses for several reasons. 

·         The first is declining SNF occupancy particularly for short-term rehab.  Changes in medical practices and  policies mean that fewer patients qualify under Medicare for inpatient short-term rehab in a SNF.  They go home and get Medicare-covered short-term rehab on an outpatient basis (physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy).  Not only are their own residents not qualifying for Medicare-covered SNF care, CCRCs with SNFs that take external patients are getting fewer and fewer of these patients.  Empty beds are a financial drain.

·         The high cost of complying with federal Medicare regulations covering SNFs.  The reporting requirements alone are burdensome.  State regs for assisted living are generally less burdensome.

·         Changes in medical practices and changes in state regulations have made it possible to care for patients with more complex needs in assisted living who formerly would have had to be cared for in skilled nursing.


What does their CCRC giving up their SNF mean for residents? If you don’t have the Medicare-required 3-night acute care hospital stay to qualify for Medicare reimbursement in a SNF, then you most likely get short-term rehab or respite care in your CCRC’s Assisted Living. If you reach a point where you need the round the clock care formerly provided in the SNF, you will receive that care in AL. We were told that Collington would maintain SNF level staffing in its AL, specifically that there would be an RN 24/7, which Maryland does not require for Assisted Living facilities.


What if you do have the 3-night qualifying stay and doctor’s orders for short-term rehab?  The answer largely depends on the type contact you have.  Collington has both type A (lifecare) contracts and type C (fee for service). 


If you have a type C contract, you pay the appropriate daily rate for the level of care.  When the CCRC has a SNF, Medicare reimburses for the daily rate.  When it doesn’t and you get your short-term rehab in AL, you pay the CCRC daily rate.  If you qualify for Medicare, it would be to your financial advantage to go an off-campus SNF where Medicare will pay.


If you have a type A lifecare contract, your monthly rate doesn’t change as you move through levels of care.  Your contract likely provides for a temporary stay in a higher level of care for short-term rehab or respite with a return to your IL unit.  So you can happily return to campus at no cost (perhaps a charge for additional meals). However, it would be to the CCRC's financial advantage to have you at an off-campus SNF where Medicare would reimburse.


At Collington, most residents have signed privacy waivers to allow the community to be informed when they are hospitalized or discharged or in rehab off campus or temporarily in our Health Cener etc.  A social worker emails transition notices a couple of times a week.  So we get to see some residents going to off-campus SNFs (Collington has informal relationships with two nearby ones) and other residents coming straight back to the Health Center for rehab or respite.  Of course, we don’t know why any given resident is going anywhere. I speculate that it is those with type C contracts who go off-campus and those with type A who come home. It may also depend on how intense their therapy needs are. I have heard that at least one of the off-campus SNFs provides more intensive, twice a day, 7 days a week therapy. But certainly a great many are being discharged from a hospital stay and coming straight back to a temporary stay in AL for rehab or respite and those who comment on their stay in a post on the resident listserve are generally very positive.


Theoretically, Collington is providing transportation for spouses and friends to visit residents in off-campus SNF rehab.  It was much discussed on the resident listserve a year ago but I have not seen any commentary lately.  Given our staff shortages, my guess is that spouses and friends are coping on their own and have given up expecting Collington to provide transportation. I see posts from residents who no longer drive saying If you are going to Future Care to visit someone, I would love a ride so I can visit .___.


There are all sorts of combinations of possibilities and it is worth sitting down with your marketing person and going through a variety of what ifs to be sure that you understand your particular CCRCs contracts.  I would not view discontinuing the SNF as a deal breaker. But you do want a clear understanding of what to expect in a variety of circumstances 


Lorrie Rogers

Collington


SocialWorkerMO

Thoughtful posts help so many people, Lorrie. The more we understand the system, the better we can intelligently make decisions and manage our lives. Thank you

Philippa Strahm

The “Exercising Control or Giving it Up?” article provided by Susan Farkas and Lorraine Rogers’ explanation of how and why CCRCs are changing how they provide skilled nursing services are immensly informative.


But they will be “gone with the wind” unless action is taken to preserve them in a form easily accessible in the future by all NaCCRA members. Could they be included in the “Documents” section of the NaCCRA website? 


Roberta Parillo

Where are these articles by Susan Farkas and Lorraine Rogers? I cannot find them. Perhaps I missed them in the thread. Will someone please send them to or to the group.


Thank you,

Roberta

Philippa Strahm

Susan’s Oct. 13 post “Attachment (1)” at the end.

Lorraine’s Oct. 14 post - the message itself.

Susan Farkas

The information Lorraine shared about Medicare is very helpful.


Otherwise, as prospects hopefully know, there are no two CCRCs that function the same way. Whatever applies to one, might not be true someplace else. The contract rules.


At one of the CCRCs where I put down a deposit, they only have licensed ALF and MC. Prior to COVID, they had a few rooms for short term SNF (rehab). During COVID they discontinued that and it has not been restored to-date. I was told by some staff that due to this, if residents need short term SNF, they get help to find what they need someplace else. From residents I learned that after a hospital stay they were left on their own... Also I was told that two person transfers are a maybe and if the ALF can offer safe longer term "nursing home type" care, they might provide it. However, "it depends". The contract doesn't spell that out. If the facility decides that the needs exceed what they can offer, you have 30 days to find another place or solution. So again, make sure you understand the implications of no SNF (short or long term) at the CCRC you are looking at. Once you payed the entry fee, depending on the contract you signed, you might not be able to change your mind.


Chuck Webb

Before the Social Security Act, there were no nursing homes in America. They are now and have been dependent on government financing. Community nursing homes are supported about half by Medicaid and half by private pay. Medicare rehab funding is a source of supplemental income for many CCRC nursing homes. They work with hospitals and provide PT, OT, cardiac rehab, and Speech Therapy. Nursing homes are generally more expensive than the funds provided by Life Care contracts, and the supplemental income is helpful. Some CCRCs built more beds than needed, and nursing staff are both hard to find and increasingly expensive. The progressive switch of beneficiaries to Medicare Advantage also decreases nursing home income because the private corporations often provide only partial rehabilitation and then notify the nursing home that they will no longer pay for the beneficiaries' beds. The community nursing home industry suffers from inadequate staffing, which motivates seniors to do everything they can to rehab at home or in assisted living with the minimal support they can muster (family, church, Medicare caregivers). The Center for Medicare Advocacy just published that the nursing home industry has filed its third legal challenge to the nurse staffing rule (see below). By not providing the staff needed to care for patients, care is inadequate.

https://medicareadvocacy.org/nursing-home-industry-files-third-legal-challenge-to-nurse-staffing-rule/?emci=35ad5aaa-fe87-ef11-8474-6045bda8aae9&emdi=b390e703-a78c-ef11-8474-000d3a98fa6b&ceid=8356491

"Conclusion The nursing home industry may win one or more of these lawsuits, or it may get Congress to enact legislation to stop enforcement of the final rule. But there is no question that if the nursing home industry continues to fight changes that would improve care for residents, it will continue to dwindle and decline, as people increasingly choose any long-term care option other than a nursing home."

Lorraine Rogers

I wonder about a statement that “Before Social Security Act, there were no nursing homes in America”.  My father spent his final years in a nursing home as did my grandfather before him. Both were private pay, neither received any government payments for their care. I do agree, however, that Medicare paying for rehab in a SNF resulted in the growth of the industry and in the conversion of many long-term custodial care nursing homes into dual use, long-term care and short-term rehab. Needing to meet Medicare requirements resulted in improved conditions in many nursing homes.


I agree that inadequate staffing is an issue for nursing homes and applaud the new regs with increased staffing requirements. However, I take issue with the contention that people are avoiding nursing homes and getting rehab anywhere else due to poor care in nursing homes. It’s about the money honey. If Medicare isn’t paying for rehab in a SNF, then people choose a less expensive option. 


Certainly, back in the day,  being too young for Medicare meant that I recovered from life-threatening surgery at home, while in recent years now being old and on Medicare meant that I rehabbed in a SNF following 4 surgeries. Did I actually need nursing care? Perhaps following the first two, but not really following the two hip replacements -- I needed help but not the care of an RN. I was lucky that I had the qualifying 3-night hospital stay each time and got to stay in a SNF for a few days at taxpayer expense. 


With changes in medical practice and Medicare payment protocols, fewer and fewer patients are qualifying for Medicare covered rehab in a SNF. That’s the major factor in the decreasing census.


Lorrie Rogers

Collington

Susan Farkas

Related to the topic:

________

Medicare Publishes Final Rule for Hospital Observation Status Appeals

As a result of the Center for Medicare Advocacy’s class action litigation, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) issued a final rule this week to establish appeals for hospital patients whose status is changed from inpatient to observation. The appeals will open the door to medically necessary services in nursing homes that many have had to forgo, or pay thousands of dollars for, due to their designation as “observation status.”


https://medicareadvocacy.org/medicare-publishes-final-rule-for-hospital-observation-status-appeals/?emci=35ad5aaa-fe87-ef11-8474-6045bda8aae9&emdi=b390e703-a78c-ef11-8474-000d3a98fa6b&ceid=8557747

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